Pramod Muthalik has said that he opposes Valentine’s Day because, among other things, it is about lust, not about love.
To begin with, if exchanging cards and roses is a sign of lust to Muthalik, all I can say is that this man has had a very, very sad life! He needs help. And I don’t mean in his chaddi-retailing business.
But even if it is about lust, so what?
I think lust is good. I also think love is a tad overrated. Just a tad, mind you.
Why is lust seen as something undesirable? I mean, ‘only love’ is fine when it comes to parents, siblings, friends, offspring, pets, friends, abstract concepts, mathematics, art, vada-pav – you get the gist.
But when it comes to the real thing, isn’t it actually lust that makes the world go ‘round? Isn’t it really lust that kick-starts love?
There are many myths about love. That could be because no one can really define, or even describe, love. Many, it seems, don’t know or realise what love is – but in the same breath will tell you that they are, or at some point have been, in love. On the other hand, lust is so much more, well, tangible. Everyone knows and realises what lust is. It’s kind of difficult not to.
So what are the myths? Let’s start with the most enduring one – that love endures, while lust is fleeting. Complete drivel. Let me stand that question on its head. Without lust, can love endure without degenerating into glorified companionship? And, allow me to add, by the time lust stops to matter, I am sure love does as well. Then, all that one craves is company – any company, comfort and care. And a safe distance from incontinence.
There’s also this whole thing about true love (as opposed to the false variety!) not asking anything in return, being unselfish, putting the other person first. Isn’t that exactly what a traditional Indian housewife does, or is supposed to do? Is that true love? Because if it is, I know most women would not want love! And – be truthful now – how many of us are truly unselfish, not asking anything in return, and putting the other person first? Not too many, I’d wager.
This is not to knock love off its lofty pedestal. It’s just to point out that regardless of which one comes first, or which one outlasts the other, for most of our lives, love and lust go hand in hand. And my submission is that both, lust without love as well as love without lust, are necessarily transient and incomplete experiences. For anything less fleeting and more fulfilling, both need to co-exist. So perhaps it’s time to stop not just trashing lust, but also lauding love at its expense.
Besides, does ‘pure’ love, as glorified by the scriptures, literature and the religiously orthodox, exist? Or is it just a pleasant, companionable feeling in the head, initiated by a chemical reaction and sustained by a biological urge?
Do tell.
February 11, 2010 at 4:41 pm
[…] https://quirkyindian.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/love-or-lust/ […]
February 11, 2010 at 4:56 pm
“is it just a pleasant, companionable feeling in the head, initiated by a chemical reaction and sustained by a biological urge”
It is. Well, at least I think so.
I don’t care that what this politician thinks of Valentine’s Day. He is entitled to his views. I only hope that he does not start vandalising property and harassing people over them.
Also, I’m beginning to believe that individual liberty is still a foreign concept to most of Indian society. Hence the culture police.
February 11, 2010 at 5:04 pm
Lust is supreme. Love is overrated hype 😀
What muthalik and the rest of the chaddi gang needs is a good lay. That’s why i believe no one should remain a bachelor. Everyone should marry and have sex like crazy. Its only when you dont do that, you get membership into crappy organisations like the chaddi gangs (VHP, Bajrang Dal, RSS etc) and such crappy thoughts come in mind.
February 11, 2010 at 5:26 pm
And what is untrue love? Either there is love or there is no love. Period.
February 11, 2010 at 7:15 pm
Absolutely. Lust definitely kick starts Love. It is the lust which pulls one to other; no other feeling.
And I am pondering over by the time lust stops to matter, I am sure love does as well. Then, all that one craves is company – any company, comfort and care. Yeah, U r right.
February 11, 2010 at 8:47 pm
So used to reading your tongue-in-cheek posts…that this one nearly threw me off balance!!
Well, as kids, we ‘Boooo’ even the word ‘love’. As we grow older, ofcourse things change. And as we grow EVEN older..I guess, we just accept truth as it is. Which, like you have rightly said, love and lust go hand in hand! One has to be passionate about everything he/she does..be it love or war 🙂
February 11, 2010 at 10:47 pm
‘lust without love as well as love without lust, are necessarily transient and incomplete experiences. For anything less fleeting and more fulfilling, both need to co-exist. ‘ Absolutely!!
This pure love business – I seriously doubt if it exists!
February 12, 2010 at 12:57 am
To the extent I have read your posts, it is not very often that you come up with posts bordering on philosophy or human psyche, and this once when you did, it was tad unfortunate that it was sort of reactionary, somewhat limiting the scope of your elucidation. And that it was in reaction to something as superficial as Muthalik’s interview, made it all the more unfortunate.
Here, I will try to get a bit deep, and like always, so nice that you are, hope you won’t mind. 🙂 Actually, I had planned to do a post on these lines.
You had commented on my post on Conflusions, where I had not even talked of lust. But that does not mean I consider lust to be a base instinct. However, I do believe love can exist in exclusion of lust, or rather most frequently does exist in exclusion of it. But this exclusion is not in person, but in time. Meaning, I could feel lust and love for the same person, but not exactly at the same time. But then I think same holds true for almost any pair of emotions. At any given moment we are capable of harboring only one emotion towards a person. Yes, the fluctuation may occur extremely frequently, like say in matter of seconds. This in turn could be possibly because, we cannot focus on all the feelings we hold for a person at the same time.
To define lust would be difficult, but what makes it different from love is that: fulfillment of lust involves viewing the other person as merely a means to pleasure, which objectifies the other person. The moments of most intense lust, make us totally forget that the object we are regarding is a human with emotions, aspirations, pains, etc. Again, nothing wrong with it since it is consensual, or not against someone’s wishes. Love involves acknowledgement of other values, which tend to be more pervasive in time – like one’s ideals, intellect, helpfulness, solidarity built upon past cooperation, etc. Yes, so love is indeed a form of intense companionship, or may be that’s how I look at it [you know, I have seen there to be lot of disagreements between people simply because they define various terms differently].
Personally for me, why I feel one has to guard oneself against lust (myself included), is because of the things it can make us do. Whenever I have seen (at least) boys in my hostel, pretending to love a person, they were guided by lust. Now, of course the next question would be how would I know they were pretending? That is because while on one hand they would text messages akin to we will stay together for saat janams (of course, not such loser SMSes, but hope you get the point), on the other hand they would make jokes with other guys about how shapely do they find the boobs of their love interest, or how they would want to smooch her, etc (sic). But I would never hear them saying how they liked some more fundamental trait of hers, say honesty or wanting to understand the academic things better, or her compassion for people, etc. Mind you I am not implying that that they experience lust for other person that I consider wrong, but that it is purported as love, is what used to disgust me. And that they could joke about it in the manner suggested they themselves were aware they were indulging in some kind of pretence.
Lust can make me biased. For instance, if I am to select a candidate in a company I work for, if lust comes into play, would I not partly overlook the qualities on the basis of which I am to make selection among candidates? Say, I find candidate “A” inciting my lust, if I do not acknowledge and guard myself from acting against it, I might end up selecting her with this knowledge that I will get to see her everyday in the office, maybe even flirt with her and mmmmm… if luck is good maybe, even… (something that rhymes with “luck” 😉 ). And what if these thoughts prevent me from selecting candidate “B” who is not that good looking but better suited for the job? But I am aware, in the process of filtering out lust, I should not be overcompensating, meaning I should not overlook the genuinely good qualities in candidate A, whatever she possesses. The only way I can accomplish all this is by being aware of the power that lust can exercise over me.
Whereas, I feel, love if “true”, would not make one lie or pretend. Why? Because the one I love, I would like her to love me back, for what qualities I truly stand. But if I pretend she would fall in love with a mistaken image, and not “me”! I hope you do not find these things too idealistic or something. To keep it very brief, if you have read The Fountainhead or in particular, Atlas shrugged – both by Ayn Rand, you would appreciate better what I am meaning. Which is not to mean, my conception of lust v/s love was built because of what she has written, but just that till the point I do the said post, that could serve as a reference point for what I mean.
But yes, beyond this, I cannot distinguish between love and lust or stratify as to which is better, and moreover there is no need to, because they are not mutually exclusive in being directed towards the same person.
And lastly, I have seen the first kind of “love” being the driving factor more often in celebration of Valentine’s day and the gifting and wooing that goes behind it, than the second kind. 😉
I was really glad to read your take on such personal matters. Hope to see you write in more on ‘such’ subjects. Cheers!
February 12, 2010 at 1:01 am
Oh and BTW, the way I think of love, it is impossible that it be selfless, as in I would very much want it to be requited. The selfless kind of love is total hogwash. One who indulges in it, does not value his/her own love for the other person. Strong words, but that’s what I truly believe in.
February 12, 2010 at 1:22 am
Sorry, the third comment here. Your penultimate comment made me get your point completely. Yes, all our feelings are outcomes only of neurotransmitters. So, in the absolute sense, no emotion is more noble than the other. Genesis of all is the same.
If you might be interested, I have something slightly related, here:
http://ketanpanchal.blogspot.com/2009/03/free-will.html
February 12, 2010 at 7:24 am
If lust were so undesirable, India’s population wouldn’t be over a billion…I wonder how many kids Muthalik has? He and others like him are all bullshitters out to get some publicity…
February 14, 2010 at 6:52 pm
LOL Sraboney he isn’t married 🙂 Not sure if he decided ‘pure love’ doesn’t need marriage either.
February 12, 2010 at 1:04 pm
what a fantastic thing to happen to Muthalik today in the news… 😛 😛 I couldnt stop Guffawing when I heard him saying aisi Gundagardi nahi chalegi !!!!!!!
look who’s asking for justice !!!!!
February 12, 2010 at 11:32 pm
Lust is important for love to sustain but then there are many case when love lives on without lust. Latter cases are those where a partner refuses to remarry because he/she is still in love with the dead spouse or where a partner is seriously ill/suffering from Dementia and the spouse takes care without any expectations not because he/she is forced to but because she wants to.
Muthaliks and the likes of him can go to hell. Who cares what sickos like him has to say about anything.
February 13, 2010 at 11:29 am
Love does have elements (sometimes majorly) of lust of course. And it is darn important as well.
But love does survive and survive quite well without lust.
There are those who presumably are on a higher plane(At least i think so) and love without lust.:)
It’s just to point out that regardless of which one comes first, or which one outlasts the other, for most of our lives, love and lust go hand in hand.
Yes, for most of us it is just so:)
As for the ‘mahanubhav’ called Muthalik really…. enough words wasted on the likes of him. He really needs to get a life.
February 13, 2010 at 8:09 pm
nothing wrong with lust ,
muthalik’s lust balloon must have burst,
and his sena is totally frust,
they need a thrust,
butt only just,
remind them if you must,
before you love your bust,
learn to love others first.
congrats on the pick – good write.
February 13, 2010 at 9:47 pm
Interesting take!
Definitely a thin line exists thr..
February 14, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Istrongly support your second proposition: ove is nothing but a chemical reacton.There exists the biological urge, but the urge is also consequential to a kind ofchemical reaction.
February 14, 2010 at 6:32 pm
But quirky, actually when lust stops to matter, isn’t it love that keeps you thoughtful about the other person. Though not entirely selfless but still.
February 14, 2010 at 7:06 pm
I find ‘love’ is defined in so many ways, companionship at some point also becomes love… and everybody is welcome to their own way of expressing and feeling it.
I do have problem with the way ‘lust’ is treated like a sin, not just by all religions, societies and cultures but often even by those who feel and react to it the most.
There’s also a lot of guilt associated with lust, and of course ‘good’ women are supposed to look down upon lust – we have a whole vocabulary for women who don’t.
February 16, 2010 at 3:57 pm
@Vegetable: Glad you agree.
@Liju: That explains their behaviour!
@D: I agree….but many people make the distinction. Perhaps ‘true’ love is asexual?
@Vee: Glad you agree.
@Pal: How can you be sure this wasn’t tongue-in-cheek? 😉
@Smitha: Thankoo. 🙂
@Ketan: But doesn’t your definition of love imply that the other person just needs to exist, even if unaware of your love? And if one does want love reciprocated, how does the other person do that? Words? Letters? Actions? What actions? 🙂
@Bones: Well said. 🙂
@Hitchwriter: I left a comment on that on IHM’s blog. I have mixed feelings about that. But the irony is delicious!
February 16, 2010 at 4:08 pm
@Solilo: Very interesting examples. Yes, you do have a point there! 🙂
@Indyeah: I think I get what you mean….Solilo has mentioned a couple of instances where that could happen.
@Gyanban:Thanks for the rhyming comment. 🙂
@Vipul Grover: It does, right?
@Kdpgrahi: Glad you agree
@Rakesh: Dude, good to see you back! That possibility exists…would you say that the examples given in Solilo’s comments are what you have in mind?
@IHM: You’re right, problems arise when lust is seen as evil, and not an integral part of love. It’s even worse when it’s OK for men to give in to lust, but not for women. And that’s the problem with India.
February 16, 2010 at 5:24 pm
I was trying to distinguish between the subjective feelings of love and lust and not their manifestations, like “what actions”. 😉
Same acts can have lust or love behind them. A wife can consent to have sex with her husband as a matter of marital obligation on their nuptial night (say, in an arranged marriage), and she may even end up having an orgasm, which in turn would make her feel a solidarity with her husband because of having derived pleasure from the same act (making love after all, is a cooperative act!). When repeated, this solidarity may take form of and be deemed as love by her. But imagine, if after her first orgasm, it turns out that her husband is tyrannical and she entirely is unable to have love for him, still it would not change the fact that she had experienced orgasm and would like its repetition (not necessarily with the same person), which would be a manifestation of libido and lust. Yes, if she is comfortable with the person she has sex with, it would be significantly easier to reach orgasm.
On the other hand, a man may feel sexually attracted to a woman, rape her and derive pleasure from the act, and then kill her in cold blood. Here, again lust would be distinct from love.
Likewise, behind the same act of intertwining one’s fingers with someone else’s could be both a desire to lend emotional support or it could be a manifestation of lust. Which one it is, can only be made out by the one experiencing those feelings.
A man could caress a baby’s face as a response to protective instinct that it inspires (this is because of hormone called oxytocin) due to perceived vulnerability of the baby. Whereas the same person could caress a lady’s face as a part of foreplay (of the highly imaginative kind 😉 ).
So to answer your question (from my knowledge and understanding), any act itself with certainty cannot be classified as one of lust or love by an observer. But one indulging in that act with some insightful introspection can make out which of the two it is.
Probably one confounding factor is that either because of social or biological factors, we feel more comfortable in revealing our lust to those we are comfortable with, and those in love should ideally be comfortable with each other.
Hence, ‘cuz same acts could stand for love as well as lust, and since they are more likely to occur in those who possess both the feelings, we can mistake one feeling for the other, but basically they are different.
February 16, 2010 at 5:26 pm
And (in my opinion), just how love and lust could be confused, in examples given by Solilo, Indyeah and Rakesh, love has been confused with affection/compassion/sense of duty. 😀
February 16, 2010 at 6:16 pm
Ketan, isn’t affection and compassion a form of love?
February 17, 2010 at 3:37 pm
The way I distinguish between them, affection and compassion could be consequences of love. What makes me strike this distinction is that both affection and compassion can be for total strangers. But love cannot be for a stranger. Affection is a more perennial (pervasive) feeling, whereas summoning compassion requires the object of our compassion to be in some kind of distress. I will not feel compassion for a person despite loving him/her if that person is safe and happy. To distinguish between love affection would be more difficult. Personally, I would strongly want my love to be reciprocated, but not necessarily affection. Also affection involves your considering yourself to be in somewhat superior or powerful position than the other person. But in love there is a fundamental feeling of equality of two people.
And Rakesh, I also wanted to point out yet again that these all are very interesting things to debate and discuss, but somehow it is very difficult to find fixed definitions for such abstract feelings. So quite possibly, we all might be meaning different things by words like love, lust, affection, etc. And that is the reason I participate in such discussions, ‘cuz it gives me an idea of what others think about them (feelings being discussed) and how they differ from my definitions. Unfortunately, the dictionary definitions also do not help much. 🙂
February 20, 2010 at 8:01 pm
he he… your problem is you think too much!
I think love and affection could mean the same thing but there is a noticable difference between these and lust and thus the difference of opinion with QI.
February 21, 2010 at 7:36 pm
He he Rakesh, you are right! And I’ve been told about my thinking problem many times. Notice, how it rhymes perfectly with “drinking problem”? 😉
But in all honesty, I enjoy thinking. I find it entertaining. Others find it difficult to believe this.
Anyway, as I said everyone means somewhat different things while using terms like ‘love’, ‘affection’ and ‘compassion’. My idea of love could be too romantic, as in, idealistic and rigid. I might downscale it with time and greater experience. 😉 Not sure if you yourself required to do so sometime in life. But I also ought to remember, you are married, have children and hence must have felt a wider range of emotions than I have. So, I keep in mind what you have to say. 🙂
Sorry Quirky Indian, for going so off-topic! 😀
February 28, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Well put I’d say…Love is somewhat overrated and lust a bit underrated…I find neither love nor lust difficult to understand…But I have complications understating the relationship of love, lust and morality…totally baffling!
September 22, 2010 at 11:07 am
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